During his third visit to Belgrade, we spent a lovely evening talking to John Frawley, one of the most famous British astrologers, about Edenic astrology. Although the astrology of Edenic times is a complete mystery to today's astrologers, some hints about it's existance and very few of it's techniques have survived.
Q: What do we know today about Edenic astrology?
Not much, because there is not much to know. But we know that there was an astrology before our cycle. Our astrology was given to man by the angels, and it was given to the man by the angels in Babylon. This is told to us by the scriptures. And this happened about 3000 years before Christ in our distorted perspective of time. Which means that the scrolls of the time will be rolled up at the same time on the other time of Christ.
There was something before that which - from our perception - happened in time further back then that. But, in real terms there were no stuff further back then that. It's like time is not further back - time is up there. The days of creation, the one, two, three, four, five, six days of creation - they didn't follow on from each other - they radiated above from each other, in the same way as this time was back there. So, it doesn't relate to a more distant time. It relates to a higher time, the high level of things. Now, the fact that it relates to a higher level of things means that they were dealing with essential time. They did the astrology not from the stars, but from the Zodiac. They were dealing with essence, not from the manifested stuff - which are planets. And, this is how the Wise Men were able to appear at the birth of Christ, because any other explanation for it astrologically is just nonsense.
Q: How can we explain the story about three Magis following the star of Betlehaim?
We can't look at this and say that there was a Jupiter/Saturn conjunction, because Jupiter/Saturn conjunctions happen every so often, and this was the one and only event. And this would not show the one and only event. You can not say it was a Jupiter/Saturn conjunction that was conjunct some star, because it again happens so often. This was the one and only - there is nothing else like it, there is nothing that could be repeated that could have shown these people - the Wise Men - that this was the birth of the incarnation of God into the matter. It must have been a totally out of this cosmos - a phenomenon. Because everything in this cosmos can reapeat, and that could not reapeat by definition.
Now, it is said that they came from the East. If they came from the East, they came from the Eden. There was a garden planted in the east of Eden. They came from the land where the Sun rises, which is: they came from a closer place to the divine. And, there was an astrology inner cycle before ours. And life was different then.
I live in 21st century England and I'm this creature in the world. It wasn't the same back then. The reason they have not found some supposed missing link or something - they haven't found the bones of Adam - is because they were more spiritual creatures, their bones were less formed. We are talking about not the past in a sense that it was long time ago that way. We are talking about various degrees of coming into manifestation this way - people being less solid. And, in a sense, we have ghosts and things - just less solid creatures that shed their shells and are around. But, they are just not as solid as we are.
Q: So, you would say that we constantly change?
What the philosophy implies is that we - through time - become heavier and heavier. We become more and more gross. For example, you can see this stuff when you go back to some museum - you look at the chairs that people used to sit on 500 year ago and think: "Why the hell didn't they put a cushion on that?" It is not that they were more disciplined or puritanical - it's just that we are becoming more and more in the body, incrasingly. More in the body, more identified with our body.
We are told - and I don't presume to be talking about this with any degree of authority - but we are told that there are earlier ages. And they are not earlier in the sense of past, because there is no past. It's earlier in the sense of ... there is no words to describe it, but in the sense of less formed then us, and therefore with us now in a way. That's why we have spiritual beings around us all the time, which in the West we do not acknowledge, because we are too gross to acknowledge it.
If you go back up a bit into the world which is around us, there is another level, a higher level of astrology. And, one senses that there was a knowledge of this in the past.
Q: Were the astrologers of the past aware of Edenic astrology?
Bonati doesn't seem to have known this, but Lilly definitelly did. He talked about inner kabala of astrology, and he says that all of his real judgements were made by this. Because he had to burn - or says he burned his books, or whatever - suppose he renounced all this past knowledge. Lilly obviously, if you read his autobiography, was dealing with this for all his important stuff. For his day to day stuff he dealt with the stuff I am teaching you. For his serious stuff, he dealt with the astrology from the higher level. He dealt with what he called the inner kabala of astrology. He was dealing with the astrology at the completely different level to this, and he hints at what it was. He never explains it. He never talks about it at all. And it's hard to know from him how much he was actually in touch with it. Wether he was actually in touch with it, and could contact it and use it, or wether he just hoped to and tried to manipulate it. But he was certainly aware of the fact that there was a higher level of astrology.
Now, it's not psychic stuff or any crap like that - that is rubbish. He spoke about it in terms of calling down angels, but you can not call down an angel - because an angel is not a separate being. It's just not possible. The only thing you can call down is gins, who are spirits, and that is crap. This is tarot and rubbish like this, it's malevolent and is not good. People should not do tarot.
Q: Really?
Yes. Because it opens them up and gin comes in. Gins are around us. I don't really understand that stuff. There are people who know far more about this stuff then I do. They told me. But, I've seen enough to know that it's dangerous and that you don't mess around with it. And you open yourself - if you do things like tarot - you open yourself to a gin and one should not do it. These are spirits. They are even not spirits, but beings that inhabit the Earth along with us, but we need to keep walls between them and us. And, in our society we do not recognize this. In other societies we do.
So, when Lilly talks about summing up angels, he is talking about calling down gins and speaking to a gin. And gin can tell the truth, but they also lie. And they would tell you truth to entice you in, and then they lie. And that is what he was talking about. He also talks beyond that, beyond summing the angels - about this kabala of astrology. Now, wether he was aware of it just because he was reading books, or wether he actually knew it from the oral tradition is not clear. He may possibly have known it from the oral tradition. But, certainly the oral tradition has been broken between him and us.
There are some remenences open to us of this high stuff and there are certain things in our astrological knowledge which just don't fit with the other stuff. They are obviously of a different pattern. Certain pattern in our knowledge.
Q: Does anyone in the world practices Edenic astrology today?
Not in the West. I would be very surprised if there is anyone in the West who knows this stuff. If there is, it is somebody working within Islam. If there is. That's the only place where you will find it.
Anyway, way before this - and not past in time, but at the higher level of being, which is still there, beyond us and above us - there is this Edenic astrology. And there are things in our astrology which does not make sense. Quite obviously they smell different. They don't smell like our astrology, they don't fit with our astrology. And, even though because our astrology is a lower level of manifestation of this, they are congruent with it. There is a quality of life about them, which reveals that they obviously come from a higher level in the same way as - if you read Dante there is a quality of light about Dante which reveals that he is writing at the higher level then Tolstoy. There was a light in the words. If you are writing at the higher level, there is a light there. If you are writing at the lower level, the lower level of things, this diminishes.
Q: Which are those things in our astrology today that are vestages of Edenic astrology?
The three things which are in our astrology which reveal this are the joys of the planets, the exaltations of planets and the seven key Arabian parts. And these three things are completely alien to everything else in our astrology, they are not related to it.
These three things come from the vestages of our Edenic astrology, which is the astrology that was before men fell, before men was expelled from Eden. And, a knowledge of this is the only way which the Magis could possibly have known the star. That's the only thing that makes the logical sense. Because, what we are talking about with this star is the manifestation of the divine, which is the higher level coming into the lower. They are at the higher level, because they are doing astrology at the higher level, they can see it.
Now, the exaltations of the planets is were the planets were before men fell. That is, before the created soul assumed its material body, and therefore assumed the reality of life and death. Now, the scriptures talk about this in terms of sin, but sin is neccessary. Because to talk about it in terms of sin imputes failure to the divine, and this is logically impossible. We can not impute the failure on the divine. God is perfect by definition. God is perfection. God is the all good. God is the unchanging, infinite, perfect thing. And the creation is not him, and therefore is not his failure.
But the initial thing is that initial fiat: "Let there be light" - the creation of the angelic orders, which is the essence of absolutely everything. Now, the whole purpose of this was that there will be manifest creation - which is us, the men - which will go back to God. So, it's a neccessary purpose of it. Because, God is absolutely good, and he can manifest his goodness only by creating men and putting his whole self into body, in a person that Christ into this, and going back to taking it through this redemtion that brought Christ back to God.
And therefore, there must be imperfection. Hence the fact that third of the angels has had to fall away, to hell or wherever, which is falling away from that. Now, at the lower, grosser level, man must fall. These things come down into the grosseness of the body. When man was at the higher level, he was this spiritual being.
Q: Is there any connection between angel's fall and man's fall?
Yeah. That's what I am trying to articulate. It is the same thing, exactly the same thing. Man must fall. Because the third of the angels fall, the third of the angels in man falls. The third of us falls.
Q: How did it happen that he fell?
It was neccessary, because he is not God. He must do. He's not God. Creation is not God. God is perfect. Therefore, what's separate from God can not be perfect. Therefore, man must fall. The Genesis story is a mythical retelling of this basic logical statement. Neoplatonists state it as a logic, but Genesis state is as a story - the man must fall, because he is not God. All we are talking about is just levels.
Now, as man falls, because he falls away from God, he puts on a body. Which we are told in Genesis - he makes his cloths of leaves, which is a same as all these hero figures putting on bodies of animals and things and stuff. Before man fell, he was at the level of the signs of the Zodiac. He fell bellow it. He fell into the terms of Saturn, the world of Saturn. Therefore he puts on this body, the coat of leaves.
And, to go back to the Edenic stuff - we are talking about astrology at the level of signs of the Zodiac, which is astrology of the angelic orders. Now, this is what the Magis must have been aware of. But, what makes it hard to describe is that this is not past in a sense of the past time and our time, it wasn't just a long time ago. It's time on a different dimension. This is utterly logical, and it's in the scriptures.
They were aware of the manifestations on the lower level, which would reveal the incarnation of the higher level into this lower level. We can not see this from down here. There is no way, it's not possible, it's just not logically possible to create a birth chart for Christ or find the star.
From the higher level, they could be aware of this, and they obviously were. Therefore, they were obviously from the angelic orders when they came down here. We are not talking about human kings, or three guys: Nick Campion, Kim Farnel and Tijana Marinkovic. Although they are briliant astrologers, they did not get on their camels and go ride accross the desert for three days. It's not possible.
Q: You have explained one of those three things - the exaltations. How about the seven key Arabian parts?
We are talking about a higher level, and at this higher level of manifestation - not in time, but in being - we have to lift ourselves to this. And, this is why if we are dealing with the birthchart of somebody who is in the game - spiritually - we look at the 7 key Arabian parts: Fortuna and the parts which are derived from it. And, if they are in play, which is usually shown by direct aspects to it from preferably their dispositors, otherwise, some other planets, we know it's "game on". We know that we are dealing on that level, or that a person has that potential to live at that level.
The exaltations of the planets and the joys of the planets come from the same level of astrology. They are not related to the other house dignities or debilities. They come from somewhere else. Which is why there is this idea of exaggeration behind the exaltations, for example. Because we are going back to - it's very easy to say that you are seeing the best of somebody, the way it manefested at the lower level. What we see is the essence of the person. We are going back to the angelic order. We are seeing the angelic order as it were. It's like looking at the blueprint of person. Blueprint is very nice, but when you get the builders in, they cut a corner here and cut a corner there, and then it's not quite the same. What we are looking at when we talk about the exaltations, we are talking about the blueprint. And what we get in reality is the finished product, which is not the architects pretty picture.
Q: And what about the joys of the planets?
The same applies to the joys. It's where the planets are ought to be, where they are happiest. What we should be doing in our lives. For example: Moon in the 3rd house, the Moon should be directly opposite the Sun. We would be so much better if it were. It's not always. Not in the past, but at this higher level of manifestation, and therefore somewhere within us, it is. And therefore the extent to which the Moon deviates from this joyeous place show us something about our falling short or our desire to get back to this higher level. Not get back at it, actually - because getting back is a tempral metaphore.
That's what we got of the Edenic stuff. That's what is given to us still. And the important thing is not the time past, it is the time somehow within us. To think of it as a time past is coping out. We sell ourselves. This is what Adam did - he sold himself to time. This is Adams failure - he coped out and neccessarily identified himself with time. Whereas time in a lateral term is a myth. What we are talking about is up there. This is the reality of it, but we are too gross to appriciate this. The higher you get - and if you are dealing with people with some kind of spiritual verocity in their lives - this stuff becomes incredibly important in their charts.
Г.Ф.: Как бы вы обозначили ваши жизненные убеждения?
Д.Ф.: Восходящий Козерог сбросил в бездну всё, чем манила жизнь - несчастный ублюдок! Я - убежденный католик.
Г.Ф. : Как Вы приняли католицизм?
Д.Ф.: 98% меня не видит каких-либо противоречий. Я не был рождён католиком, я пришел в эту веру через астрологию. Я понял, что она - единственная система, которая интелектуально настолько точна, что удовлетворяет меня. Но Катехизис говорит о том, что все астрологи - это слуги дьявола. Оставшиеся 2% во мне понимают, что это правда. Я подозреваю, что прийдёт время, когда я прекращу практиковать астрологию именно поэтому. Но в настоящий момент я думаю, что вера расширяет мои познания в астрологии и развивает саму себя.
Г.Ф.: Вы чувствуете, что астрология может помочь Вам найти ответ на эту дилемму? Или это парадокс - осведомляться у астрологии об астрологии: какое решение этого выбора подходит для тебя?
Д.Ф.: Я думаю, что так ставить вопрос грешно. Существуют вещи намного важнее астрологии. Астрология работает со спектром, но он - источник белого света, который в конечном счете важен.
Г.Ф.: Предположим, что кто-то скажет, что все примеры, в которых астрология даёт точные результаты, всего лишь .... Что вы ответите?
А я бы на него посмотрела исторически, но у меня нет достаточных знаний для подобного коммента. Я не знаю, был Ли Лилли "каббалистом" или "юзером" неких тайных (явных?) учений, которых в те века в Европе было пруд пруди.. Может Денис Куталёв это прокомментирует?
Джон же здесь явно повторяет какие-то еретические легенды. Говорю "ересь" не в смысле собственной оценки, а в русле того, что подобные речи в католицизме вряд ли догматичны.. => Это не наш вопрос, это вопрос отношений Джона Фроули с его религиозным выбором. Комментировать такие вещи бессмысленно. ИМХО.
Интервью Фроули!!!
Линейный вид
